“重估郎顾之争”答客难

<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:10.9pt;background:#EFEDED"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #373434;">&nbsp;我对</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #373434;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #373434;">右派</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #373434;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #373434;">朋友说,如果我们没法制约权力盗窃公产,就别指望这样的权力会尊重私产。同样对</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #373434;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #373434;">左派</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #373434;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #373434;">朋友我也要说:如果你昨天支持</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #373434;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #373434;">崽夺爷田不手软</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #373434;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #373434;">,那么你今天就没法责怪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #373434;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #373434;">崽卖爷田不心痛</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #373434;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #373434;">。</span></p> <p align="center" style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt; line-height:10.9pt">&nbsp;<strong><span style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family: &quot;宋体&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333333">  </span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #333333;">&#8212;&#8212;</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 宋体, sans-serif; color: #333333;">新一波国企改革热议中的</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #333333;">10</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 宋体, sans-serif; color: #333333;">年回顾</span></strong></p> <p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:10.9pt"><span style="font-size:6.0pt;color:#454141">  </span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">20</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">年前,中国的企业改革开始从</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">放权让利</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">、</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">双轨制</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">、</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">公企私包</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">发展到以</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">产权明晰</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">、</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">身份置换</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">为话题的产权改革阶段。</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">10</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">年前,已有产权改革的利弊引起的争论因一位港台背景学者指名道姓挑起一场著名案例之争而迅速升温。自</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">1993</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">年在《东方》创刊号发表《</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">叶启明现象</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">辨析</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#9472;&#9472;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国有资产产权改革中的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">自购自</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">问题》起,笔者先后参加了</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">如果不是发起了的话</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">这两个阶段的讨论。</span></p> <p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:10.9pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  笔者的观点很鲜明,而且不同于当时主要的两大派:笔者认为从计划经济转轨为市场经济,产权改革是绕不过去的。计划经济好比一个由</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">家长</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">独断的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">旧式大家庭</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,转向市场经济就意味着终究要让</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">子弟们</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">按:</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">子弟们</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">就是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">祖国</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的公民们,当时</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">红二代</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">概念还不凸显,似乎没人对此发生误解</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">)&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">亲兄弟明算账</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,分家析产、自主自立以面对市场竞争。在这方面,笔者完全不同于维护</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">旧式大家庭</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的那些所谓</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">左派</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。</span></p> <p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:10.9pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  但是,这个过程不能搞成</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">掌勺者私占大饭锅</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。在民间,旧式大家庭难以为继时,人们更可能因</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">如何分家</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">而非是否分家,导致矛盾和冲突,甚至打官司、出人命,都往往是为</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">如何分家</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">之争,而不是为是否分家之争。因此</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">公平分家</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">对于转轨的预后非常重要。所谓</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">公平</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">当然未必是平均,但必须要有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">子弟们</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的充分参与、监督、博弈和讨价还价。所谓</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">分家</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">也是关于市场化产权初始配置的比喻,并非主张</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">只分不卖</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,但无论分还是卖都有公平与否之问。无论分还是卖都是在处置公共资产,本质上都属于</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">公共选择</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">而非</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">双方交易</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。在</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">卖方缺位</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">状况下如果要进行</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">看守者交易</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,看守者就必须得到所有者</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">公共资产的所有者即公众</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的明确授权并接受后者的监督。在这些方面,笔者又与那些不管公平与否能</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">分家</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">就行、甚至以</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">减少交易成本</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">、</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">直接交给能人</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">为理由反对公众过问公共资产处置过程的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">右派</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">有鲜明的争论。</span></p> <p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:10.9pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  岁月如梭,如今为解决市场机制的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">决定性作用</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">问题,新一轮国企改革又在酝酿和发动。一些朋友对我当初的主张提出质疑和讨论,我觉得很有意思。以下就是我们讨论的内容:</span></p> <p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:10.9pt"><span style="font-size:6.0pt;color:#454141"> </span><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 宋体, sans-serif; color: #333333;"> 关于</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #333333;">&#8220;</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 宋体, sans-serif; color: #333333;">郎顾之争</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #333333;">&#8221;</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 宋体, sans-serif; color: #333333;">的后果</span></strong></p> <p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:10.9pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  问:</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">2004</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">年</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">8</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">月</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">9</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">日,香港大学财务学教授郎咸平在复旦大学发表演讲:《格林柯尔:在</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国退民进</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的盛宴中狂欢》,质疑国企</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">MBO</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,质疑以民营化为导向的国企改革,一场大讨论开场了。在此后短短几个月时间里,无论是当时的改革派,还是左派,民间学者或者政府官员,以及涉事企业,都以各种方式加入了这场论战。这场争论在</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">2005</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">年</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">4</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">月划上了一个休止符。国务院国资委发布《企业国有产权向管理层转让暂行规定》,事实上暂停了国企</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">MBO</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,以民营化为导向的国企改革遭受重大挫折。一些参与国企改革的人士,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">10</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">年后评价这场争论,一致的看法是,这场争论改变了国企改革的方向。</span></p> <p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:10.9pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  此后</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">10</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">年,是国企改革停滞的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">10</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">年,也是国进民退的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">10</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">年。这个判断并非我们的妄言事实上,在我们和原国资委官员、国企相关负责人和一些国资领域研究专家的接触中,都听到了类似这样的判断。国资委官员回忆了当初身在政策制定岗位的艰难</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国资委领导如何无法承受来自高层和社会各个方面的压力,而最终发布事实上叫停改革的新规定。以及这场争论在地方引起的反弹</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">一些地方官员不再敢公开支持民营化指向的改革,也不再批准企业改制。一些国企经理人则回忆,因为这场争论,导致企业已经制定的员工持股方案,最终没有落地,直到目前,仍以部分高管代持的方式悬置半空。</span></p> <p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:10.9pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  答:</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">如果不</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8230;&#8230;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,就会</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8230;&#8230;&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,历史学中这种</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">反事实推论</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">往往很有启发但也会引起很大争议。其实郎咸平的言论只是压垮民怨下骆驼的最后一根稻草,没有他也会有别人加上这根稻草。</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">2005</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">年后</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">暂停了国企</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">MBO&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">是事实,但没有郎咸平的演讲就不会</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">暂停</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">如果不</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">暂停</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,在当时情况下不顾质疑、不受监督地推进</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;MBO</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">运动</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">、放手让经理</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">买断</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">自己管理的企业,而且并非自己掏钱,多半是自己要买的那个企业出面</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">该企业也就是自己领导的企业,它能不出面吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">贷款垫付,以后再用自己作为所有者的红利逐年冲抵</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">整一个空手套白狼。另一方面把工人赶出去</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">看成败,人生豪迈,只不过从头再来</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">如果这样的游戏愈演愈烈,终有一天不是郎咸平,而是如薄熙来那样的人物把因此积累的民怨在权力斗争中当牌打,你以为</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">文革</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">真的不会重演</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:10.9pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  而从另一方面讲,从</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">1990</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">年代中期到这时,产权改革在所谓</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">抓大放小</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的旗号下已经进行了多年,能甩的包袱基本都已经甩了,还有些没甩的实际上郎咸平发难后也还在继续甩。甩了之后剩下的大多不是垄断、资源性行业就是竞争性行业中少量能盈利的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">靓女</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。国企改革本来很大程度上就是以甩包袱为动机,甩得差不多,动机也就衰减得差不多了。没有郎咸平,改革就不会</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">停滞</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;?</span></p> <p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:10.9pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  再说了,郎咸平事件后产权的变化难道就真的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">停滞</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">了</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国进民退</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">与权贵化公为私就不可能同时进行</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">今天反腐揭露的那些惊人的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国有资产流失</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">不就是在</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国进民退</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的年月里发生的吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">而同样,我们知道就是在郎咸平事件前,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">掌勺者私占大饭锅</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">式的私有化固然大行其道,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">公权力</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">强拆强征侵犯百姓私产的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国有化</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">又何尝衰减</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:10.9pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  所以我对</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">右派</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">朋友说,如果我们没法制约权力盗窃公产,就别指望这样的权力会尊重私产。同样对</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">左派</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">朋友我也要说:如果你昨天支持</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">崽夺爷田不手软</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,那么你今天就没法责怪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">崽卖爷田不心痛</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。</span></p> <p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:10.9pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">就在</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国进民退</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">高潮的那一年,笔者在一个财经年会上听到一位力挺产权改革的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">主流</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">人物声称:不少人很悲观,但我不悲观。别看现在国企膨胀,总有一天这些国企还是会被糟蹋得办不下去的,到时财政背不起了,还得大拍卖,国资比重不但会回落,而且会比现在更低,低到</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">10%</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">都有可能。我当时就讲:你这个</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">右派</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">对</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国有化</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">不悲观,根据同样的逻辑,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">左派</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">对</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">私有化</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">不也可以乐观吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">别看现在民企发达,无非是养肥了再宰,总有一天还是会把你们没收进国库的,民资比重不但会回落,而且会比现在更低</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">!</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  问题在于像这样一伸一缩的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">尺蠖效应</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">中吃亏的是谁</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">当年我曾经指出:在不受制约的权力之下一会儿</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">左</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,一会儿</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">右</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">:同样依托专制强权,先以</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">左</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的名义抢劫,再以</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">右</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的名义分赃。以</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">社会主义</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">为名化平民之私为</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">公</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,以</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">市场经济</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">为名化</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">公</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">为权贵之私。</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国有部门</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">在</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">左右循环</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">中成为</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原始积累之泵</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">:以不受制约的权力为强大的马达,一头把老百姓的私产泵进国库,一头又把国库的东西泵进权贵的私囊。这可比</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">资本主义</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">条件下富人在市场上通过交换</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">私对私</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">地兼并穷人要</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">高效</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">得多了</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">!</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">我把这称之为</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">尺蠖</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">效应:你看那尺蠖一会儿收缩,一会儿放直,可是无论收与放都只朝着一个方向</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">有利于权势者而坑了百姓的方向。正像俗语所说:一个萝卜两头切,左右都是他得。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  所以我非常怀疑那种反对</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国有化</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">就得赞成不择手段地化公为私、反对</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">私有化</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">就得同意不择手段地没收民产的两种主张,我觉得这两种主张其实就是一种主张,即权力可以蔑视权利,权势可以玩弄财产。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  其实,真正的区别不在于公有变私有还是私有变公有,而就在于变化是否不择手段,权力能否为所欲为</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">我们都知道,改革前的毛泽东时代中国是主张消灭私有制的,没有谁会认为那时的中国</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">私有财产神圣不可侵犯</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。但是,即使在毛泽东时代,老百姓之间的偷盗、抢劫仍然是犯法的。张三偷了李四的钱,王五抢了赵六的物,警察照样要查办。这能证明那时中国保障了私有财产吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">不能。因为那时老百姓之间虽然不能互相侵犯财产,但权力可以侵犯、乃至任意没收公民的财产,即</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">崽夺爷田不手软</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。可见,私产受不受保障,不在于民间个人之间能不能侵犯财产,而在于统治权力能不能侵犯公民的财产。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  同样,今天郎咸平惊呼国有资产受到了侵犯。然而如今哪个老百姓可以随便私拿公家财物而不受干预</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">然而,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">郎旋风</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">却使人发现国有资产如今受到了空前的侵犯。为什么</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">答曰:就是由于</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">崽卖爷田不心痛</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">麽</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">!</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">可见,公产受不受保障,也不在于老百姓能否私拿公物,而在于有权势者能否侵夺公产。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  网上有贴云:</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">私产变公有,必须要私人同意</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">公产变私有,必须要公众同意:道理就这么简单。但是现在的情况往往相反:没收私产,例如强行拆迁,常常是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8216;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国家</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8217;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">说了算而不管房主是否同意</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">;&#8216;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">置换</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8217;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">公产,又常常是官说了算,而不管公众是否同意。</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  可见,无论私产还是公产,其不能得到保障的最主要原因都是一个,即</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">崽</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">权不受制约。这个问题不解决,中国热爱公有制的社会主义者</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">指真诚的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">主义者</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">、而不是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">主义</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">只当敲门砖的人</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">与尊重私有制的自由主义者都不会有开心的一天。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  所以,如果郎咸平的发言能够阻止</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">掌勺者私占大饭锅</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,我不认为是个坏的结果,也不认为它对保护私产会起妨碍作用。只不过得到这样的结果其实还是要靠体制的改革,一两个人的发言是不够的。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size:6.0pt;color:#454141"> </span><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 宋体, sans-serif; color: #333333;"> 关于产权改革的程序公平与</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #333333;">&#8220;</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 宋体, sans-serif; color: #333333;">实质公平</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #333333;">&#8221;</span></strong></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  问:你刚才说了许多</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">掌勺者私占大饭锅</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,难道产权改革都是这种情况</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">郎咸平搞的那些</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">案例</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">就没有问题</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">我们能不能在总体上给中国这些年来进行的国有企业的产权改革作这样的定性:这完全是一个掌勺者私分大锅饭,国有资产流失的过程</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?&#8230;&#8230;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">问题的核心是数字问题,程度问题:化公为私的比例有多大,正常和比较正常的情况有没有,有多少</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  答:我以为这个问题可以分为两个层面:在程序方面,如今的产权改革当然</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">完全</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">属于</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">掌勺者私分大锅饭</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">:在没有宪政民主、因而也没有国民与政府间的委托</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">-</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">代理关系的情况下,未受做饭</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">-</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">吃饭者委托而且后者也无法监督的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">掌勺者</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">私自处理了</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">大锅饭</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,或者用郎咸平的话说,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">保姆</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">擅自处理了</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">主人</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的财产。</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">如今的产权改革不就是这样一个过程吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  陈志武教授曾给我看他的一篇文稿,说到即便福利国家的主张有理由,也不能同意未宪政民主化的国家以搞福利的名义扩张国有成分,因为谁都没有把握这种成分是不是真的用来为公众谋福利。我完全同意这种说法。根据同样的道理,即便自由放任的主张有理由,也不能同意未经委托也不受制约的专制权力以效率的名义擅自处理公共资产,因为谁都没有把握这样处置是不是真的为了提高效率。民主私有化还是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">掌勺者</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">私有化,这就是自由主义</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">哪怕是极端自由主义或者</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">经济自由主义</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">与寡头主义的区别。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  事实上这也是当今世界私有化的公认规则:即便是民主国家</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国民明确委托的代理人</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的私有化,也是先经过民主的私有化立法程序,有时是代议制的间接民主,有时还经过了直接民主</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">全民公决</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,然后私有化才具有合法性。就这样,从立法进入具体的操作后还是有许多问题需要利益有关各方协商、接受监督与质询。而我们呢</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">即便是那个花瓶</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">人大</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,即便忌讳</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">私有化</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">这个词,不是连</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">产权明晰法</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">、</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国资置换法</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">这样的表面文章都没有做吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  既没有委托代理又不许公共协商,甚至连表面上的立法程序都没有,这样的私有化怎么可能不受质疑</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  当然这里仍然有所谓的程序与</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">实质</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的关系问题。假设</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">掌勺者</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">是出以公心的,那么他</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">私分大锅饭</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">也未必就不公道</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">兴许它实际上并没有怎么损公肥私呢</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">保姆</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">擅自处理了</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">主人</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的财产也是就程序而言,兴许这保姆也是好意,擅自处理也没往自己口袋装</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">这就是所谓的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">数字问题、程度问题</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">了。但是,坦率地说我不认为这是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">核心问题</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。这不仅因为作为自由主义者接受的基本道理之一就是程序优先于</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">实质</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,以及对不受制约的权力的道德自觉天然地不放心,更重要的还是因为:这</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">数字</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">与</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">程度</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">其实根本是没法算的。</span></p> <p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:10.9pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">道理很简单:市场经济中的商品价格本身就是通过市场决定的。在没有真正合法的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">卖方</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">因而也缺乏正常的讲价机制的情况下我们根本不可能知道它</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">实际上</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">值多少钱。因而也不可能</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">客观地</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">判断它是否被不合理地贱卖。即使我们可以不通过市场而</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">评估</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">出某个价格。但谁都知道,这样的评估只能作为讲价的参考而不能代替讲价本身。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  当然,在一般交易中这根本不是个问题:如果你出卖的是自己的东西,那么随便以什么价格成交别人都不会去指责你</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">贱卖</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">了它。但是如果你卖的是他人的东西,而且未经物主授权又不受物主的监督与制约,那么随便你卖出什么价格人家都会说你玩了猫腻。而这种怀疑从根本上说是既不能证实也不能证伪、更无从判断其</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">数字</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">与</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">程度</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  从</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">1993</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">年针对</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">叶启明现象</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的意义发表第一篇文章,直到参与</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">郎顾之争</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">引发的大讨论,我并没有对叶启明或顾雏军的案例本身说什么话,我没有进行过这些案例的调查就不能乱发言。但是,涉及公共政策的私有化战略、处置公共资产的规则,是不能通过一两个案例来论证的。就像你即使证明了自己是个理财高手,也不能未经我同意擅自拿走我的钱包</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">代替</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">我理财,这与你是否是个坏人无关,只与你没有得到授权有关。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  实际上,像格林柯尔这样的具体案例是否能够审出个</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">客观</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">结果我不知道,但在宏观层次,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国有资产流失</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的具体数字肯定是笔糊涂帐:如果按帐面价值,绝大多数产权交易肯定是被</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">贱卖</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">了。但是同样按帐面价值,国资总额在郎顾之争这几年不但没少,反而还激增近一倍</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">从</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">6</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">万亿增至</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">11</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">万亿</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。然而,这次争论的正反双方,赵晓和杨帆,都说这是不正义的,是凭借强权化私为公把民间资产给</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国有化</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">了的结果。实际上如前所述,以强权化公为私和以强权化私为公这两种过程同时存在,这就是我所讲的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">尺蠖效应</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。但是,虽然从逻辑与常识上讲谁都承认有这么两种过程,然而谁也无法确切回答以下问题:今天国有资产真有这么多吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?11</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">万亿只是个帐面数字还是确实可以变现出这个数</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">过去的所谓</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">6</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">万亿又能够变现多少</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">今天与之相比是多了还是少了</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">如果多了,是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">化私为公</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的结果还是没有化公为私的证明</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">抑或像郎咸平所讲,是国有资产经营成功自身增值的结果</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">有如此辉煌的增值可见效率高高,还用得着改革吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">如果少了又是什么原因</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">是经营不善亏掉了还是化公为私了</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">如果还有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">化私为公</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的补充,可见实际上化公为私的程度更高</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  还有,如今国资负债</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">不仅指帐面负债,还有隐性负债如过去低工资下形成的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">社保历史欠帐</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">又有多少</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">资产减负债剩下的净值又有几何</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">当时有人说这个净值已是负数,即</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">这一块如今实际上已经资不抵债,这是真的吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">果真如此,那是因为国有资产本身的经营无效与亏损,还是因为产权改革而</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">流失</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">进了私囊</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  我可以断言:这一系列问题如果不是都算不清楚,至少也是不可能都算清楚。而只要其中一项算不清楚,所谓总体上的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">数字与程度问题</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">就根本无法弄清。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  事实上,不仅今天强制化公为私的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国资流失</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">是如此,当年强制性化私为公的国资原始积累的分析也是这样。凭常识和逻辑如今绝大多数人、包括官方人士都承认那种原始积累最重要的来源就是剥夺农民,几千万中苏农民成了饿殍难道还不能证明这一点</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">但是,无论中国还是苏联,还就是有人用</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">数字</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">和</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">程度</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">来证明:实际上那个时候</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国家</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">没有从农民那里索取分毫,而农民还赚了</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国家</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的大便宜。而且除了用逻辑之外,你还真不好只用</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">数字</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">来驳斥他</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">!</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">就在郎顾之争发生前,我曾与温铁军先生讨论过这个问题</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  温:崔小梨的研究认为,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">毛泽东时代</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国家财政对农业的投入实际大于从农业得到的部分。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  秦:对于这个问题,过去苏联也有很多人</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">我记得有奥斯特洛维强诺夫等</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">做过反证。比如他们说国家给农村投入多少昂贵的拖拉机,而从农村得到的粮食不值多少钱等等,证明国家是亏损的,实际上是农民占了便宜。这个账我觉得是没办法算的。道理很简单,我们以价格为标准计算盈亏,但价格本身只有在市场条件下才能作价值尺度。这个价格如果是国家定的,就很难说得清楚。比如我给你一台拖拉机,然后拿走你一万吨粮食,但是我规定一台拖拉机值一百万元,一万吨粮食只值十万,那我还说你赚了我十倍呢</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">!</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">但这么大赚为什么你却不愿,而我还要强制你,这不是赔了钱又找骂吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">难道你我两人都是大傻瓜</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">当然不是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">!</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">其实你我都明白:如果自由交换,一台拖拉机绝对换不了一万吨粮食,所以才需要强制嘛。这么简单的道理,有些人居然就能颠倒过来,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">知识分子</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">真是了不起呀</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">!</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  温:崔小梨还有一个观点可能对你说的市场价格是个挑战。他说因为国家垄断了大部分的农产品剩余,因此只有极少数农产品可以进行市场交易,造成价格提高。提高的价格根本就不是市场价格,这个剪刀差应该如何计算</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  秦:我认为剪刀差的具体数额是无法计算的,因为缺少价值尺度。我们判断有没有剪刀差,只能用一个尺度,就是看它强制的力度。假定可以通过等价交换来解决问题,它就不需要强制。不管是中国还是俄罗斯,过去的官方叙述有一个逻辑,就是集体化老是从互助组讲到人民公社</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">在苏联是从共耕社到集体农庄</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,其实挨着互助组什么事呀</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">集体化的前身根本就是统购统销。苏联也如此,总是先有粮食危机,于是把流通领域给统起来,结果发现不行。你能强买,我还能干脆不种了呢</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">!</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">于是只能再进一步强制,把你弄到一个军营里,种不种就由不得你啦。这不是一个意识形态的问题,其实决策者并不是担心农民中存在两极分化才搞的这个东西。有人分析过,斯大林搞集体化之前一年曾经</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">13</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">次提到集体农庄的优越性,其中只有一次提到消灭剥削共同富裕,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">12</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">次都是说集体农庄能够提供大量的商品粮。中国其实也是一样,这个账算不出来,有强制就是因为需要</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">抢</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,靠交换换不到嘛。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  换言之,强制性化公为私与强制性化私为公首先在程序上就是不公正的。当然程序公正与实质公正未必是一回事。有人认为前者并非后者的充分条件,但无疑是后者的必要条件。程序公正的交易也许未必能达致实质公正,但程序公正都谈不上,实质公正就更不可能。</span></p> <p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:10.9pt"><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 宋体, sans-serif; color: #333333;">国企改革是公共事务,目的是公平地配置初始产权,为</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #333333;">&#8220;</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 宋体, sans-serif; color: #333333;">市场机制的决定性作用</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #333333;">&#8221;</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 宋体, sans-serif; color: #333333;">创造条件</span></strong></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  问:产权尽快明晰到能人手里,能够提高配置效率,有何不可</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">只卖不分,国家回收了资金,有何不公</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">很多国家对难以处理的资产可以采取</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">一马克象征交易</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,我们国有资产售出价格不菲,为什么还受到质疑</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  答:国企改革的目的是什么</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">有人说是要尽快把企业交到</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">能人</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">手里,有人说是要实现国有资本的保值增值。我觉得这都是不对的。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  既然要搞市场经济,就应当承认</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">能人</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">应当是在市场竞争中脱颖而出的,不是靠政治权力</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">配置</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">出来的。如果权力就能够有效地识别</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">能人</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">并把资源配置给他,那就靠权力来搞</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">命令经济</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">好了,何必还要向市场经济转轨</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">又何必还要搞国企改革</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国企改革,就是要把原来不可交易的产权变成可交易的东西,即通过本质上是公共事务的一定方式产生</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">有公信力的卖方</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">并非产生</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">能人</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,然后才可能有正常的产权交易,然后</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">能人</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">才可能在这样的交易中出现。换言之,国企改革就是要公平地形成产权市场的交易主体,至于这个主体是不是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">能人</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,如果不是,又如何通过市场配置转到</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">能人</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">那里,那都是以后的事。所以我相信那句话:国企改革就是要</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">在起点公平的原则下产生最初的所有者</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,然后再靠市场竞争</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">在规则公平的原则下产生最终的所有者</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,后者就是所谓</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">能人</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。显然,能人是靠市场来识别的,不是靠权力识别的。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  国企改革是否应该追求</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">保值增值</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">当然应该,但这里讲的是公平条件下国民财富的保值增值,不一定是政府手中财富的保值增值。国家权力不能用来帮特定的人发财,也不应该用来给政府敛财</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国民授权的公共财政,取之于民用之于民,那是另一回事</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。国企改革如果采取公开拍卖的方式,那当然应该是出价高者得,这是因为对于拍卖这种方式而言,价高者得就是公平的规则,而不是因为这样做政府能够收最多的钱。但国企改革当然不仅有拍卖这一种方式。国外的产权改革实践中有雇员持股、投资券分配、以及当年前东德地区以更新资本、维持就业等为条件的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">一马克象征交易</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">等方式,政府都没有回收多少钱,而基本是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">还产于民</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">了。但只要是民主授权的国家行为,依议会立法公开明白地行事,而且是公平分配,不是故意让什么人占便宜,这种改革就有公信力。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  有人说他们</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">一马克交易</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">都可以,不回收钱的分配都可以,我把国有资产卖了若干钱为什么还说是贱卖</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">道理很简单:人家是公共资产,公共授权处置,你是所有者无权,看守者私卖,这两者能比吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">当年英、法国王要征税,国民不干,说是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">无代表,不纳税</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,甚至引起抗争。可是后来民主宪政了,民选议会决定征的税比国王征的更多,国民却愿意交,为什么</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">就是因为</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">民决定取,民愿意交,取之于民,用之于民</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。不是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">君决定取,民被迫交,取之于民,用之于君</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。这是公共财政,不是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">耕田奉上、纳粮当差</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。同样道理,民主国家处置国产,委托</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">-</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">代理关系清楚,卖价多少都是合法的所有人委托代理交易,而你没有这种委托代理关系,看守者擅自交易,难怪卖价再高也会惹非议了。我前面已经说过,市场条件下的资产价格不是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">上面</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">定的,也不是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">评估</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">出来的,就是有自由意志的买卖双方讨价还价形成的。而这</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">卖方</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">或者是所有者,或者是得到所有者明确委托的代理人,如果没有这种机制,看守者擅卖并非自己所有的东西就不可能有真正的讨价还价,这</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">价格</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">当然就不可能公正了。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  当然,不能说民主国家处置公产就不会出问题。民主国家也有腐败,也有犯罪,国有资产私有化过程中也可能发生丑闻。但是宪政民主体制下委托代理关系清楚,这虽然并非产权改革得以公平进行的充分条件,却的确是必要条件。具备这种条件的产权改革也许不一定都公平,但不具备这些条件的产权改革一定不公平。郎咸平十年前强调委托</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">-</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">代理关系的重要性,我认为没错,但是他似乎认为这是个道德问题,那就不对了。委托</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">-</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">代理关系首先是制度安排,不是道德问题。</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">崽卖爷田不心疼</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">并不是因为崽没有良心,而是因为爷没有权利,崽的权力又不受制约。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  问:你又扯到民主上面去了。产权交易是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">双方交易</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,不是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">公共选择</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,和民主与否有何关系</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">而且难道改革之前有民主吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">既然国有资产是在没有民主的情况下形成的,为什么现在对它进行改革就需要有民主</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  答:</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">双方交易</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">那</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">卖方</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">是谁</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">是所有者,还是看守者</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">所有者与看守者之间建立真正的委托代理关系,这不就是个</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">公共选择</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">或民主问题吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">如果这个问题不解决,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">看守者交易</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">怎么会是正常的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">双方交易</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">那不是监守自盗吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  我们必须明白:市场经济中的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">双方交易</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">是以</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">卖方</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的产权明晰为前提的。而国企改革无论形式上是分是卖,实质上都是通过公共事务来形成有资格的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">卖方</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,然后才谈得上通常的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">双方交易</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。如果原来已经有了这种合格的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">卖方</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,市场经济就已经可以常态运作了,那还要搞什么经济改革</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">有人说可以</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">交易先于产权</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,凭权力把不属于自己也没有得到所有者委托的东西就拿去</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">交易</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,通过这种交易来产生</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">产权</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,这其实就是把公产当</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">无主物</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,谁都可以</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">其实谁都知道只有有权有势者才可以</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">拿去卖,谁卖了谁就是物主了。还说这叫</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">双方交易</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">优于</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">公共选择</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,因为可以节约</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">交易费用</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,符合科斯的主张。其实这是歪曲科斯的主张。看守者盗卖所有者的东西这叫</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">节省交易费用</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">这明明是剥夺所有者的交易权利嘛。</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">双方交易</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">适用于私人领域,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">公共选择</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">适用于公共事务,群己权界要分清,群域要民主,己域要自由,各有各的用处,不能互相替代,更不能颠倒使用,说什么谁</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">优于</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">谁</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  至于说过去也没有民主,为什么搞国企改革了就要讲民主</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">其实道理也简单:第一,过去搞</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国有化</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">时真正的弊病还不在于不民主</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">这里仅指经济而言,不民主在其他方面的弊病姑且不论</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,而在于不自由。还是那句话:</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">私产变公有,必须要私人同意</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">公产变私有,必须要公众同意</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">道理就这么简单</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。国有化是要处置私有财产,尽管处置的目的是要扩大</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">群域</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,但处置本身是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">己域</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的事,不能五个人做个决定就去没收第六个人的财产。而私有化是要处置国有财产,尽管处置的目的是要扩大</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">己域</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">产生市场交易主体</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,但这种处置本身却是公共事务,符合</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">群域要民主</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,不能一个看守者做主就吞掉了属于公众的财产。所以,过去国有化时的问题在于没有自由,现在私有化时的问题在于没有民主。</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">往者不可谏,来者犹可追</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,现在讲民主不是适当其时吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:10.9pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">其次,那么国有化以后、私有化以前的那个时代又怎么样呢</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">那时没有民主当然也很遗憾,可是那时的旧体制在某种意义上类似我前面说的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">旧式大家庭</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">家长</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">不是我们选的,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">家产</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">我们也无法过问,但家长必须保障我们,这个责任你原来是认的。现在变了,你要推卸责任了,你要我们</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">不找市长找市场</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,要我们</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">看成败,人生豪迈,只不过从头再来</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">了,那么,我们还能不过问家产吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">我们当然愿意脱离</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">旧式大家庭</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">而得到自由,但我们能甘愿被人赤条条地踢出来吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size:6.0pt;color:#454141"> </span><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 宋体, sans-serif; color: #333333;"> 破除</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #333333;">&#8220;</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 宋体, sans-serif; color: #333333;">民企原罪论</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #333333;">&#8221;</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 宋体, sans-serif; color: #333333;">,但不能放弃公正原则</span></strong></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  问:你似乎对过去的产权改革多有批评,那么你是否同意在改革中成长起来的民企是有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">是否同意</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">赦免原则</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的说法</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  答:十年前那场争论的主要双方似乎针尖对麦芒,但在一些问题上却不乏共同点。不过,这些观点并不因为双方都说而就能成立。所谓</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">民企原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的说法就是一例。当时的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国退民进</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">一般都表现为典型的官</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">-</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">商交易。通常是国企的主管</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">衙门</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">为卖方,民间</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">当然,往往也有某种非民间的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">背景</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">商家为买方。这样的买卖出了问题,于是就有了</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">民企原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">说。不仅郎咸平的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">民企原罪论</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">越讲越起劲,而且连郎先生的论敌如张维迎先生也有这种说法。据说张先生还是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">赦免民企原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">提法的首创者。看来张郎都认同民企有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,只是张主张</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">赦免</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">而郎坚持要追究罢了。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  这里的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">显然不是个宗教概念。作为宗教概念的原罪是人类之罪,何独民企</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">这个</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">显然也不是个案例概念。毫无疑问中国现在有不少不法的奸商案例,正如有许多不法的贪官案例一样。但是为什么没有人讲</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">官吏原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">或</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">干部原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">呢</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">显然这个原罪带有身份的意思:民企不是个好身份,所以人一入其中就难免掉进染缸。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  而关于官,张郎两先生都不认为有什么</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">问题。其实,我们过去一直有一种关于官的相反观念,可以谓之</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原善</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">:凡为官者本来都是民之楷模,正人君子,大公无私,道德无瑕。如果有瑕,那就叫</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">中了资产阶级</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">即商人或</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8216;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">民营企业家</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8217;)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的糖衣炮弹</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;!</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">官员都是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">民营企业家</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">带坏的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">!</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的确,你看如今的国有资产流失,不都是官员与商人打交道打的嘛。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  于是我们有必要分析一下造成</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的问题背景。首先,西方各国比起中国,是否有更多、更有权势的官至少是个疑问,但是有更多、更有钱的企业家则毫无疑问。依</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">民企原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">论,那里岂不成了罪恶的渊薮</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">但是连郎先生自己也一再说:中国这样黑的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国资流失</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">在西方法治国家很难想象,为什么</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  其次,如前所言,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">民企原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">如今</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">尤其在郎先生的语境中</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">主要与</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国退民进</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">过程有关。这个过程表现为上面所说的官商交易</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">常常也是官官交易,因为如今</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">买方</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">兼有官</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">或官的亲友</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">商两种身份者可以说比比皆是。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  这种官商交易通常是官卖商买。但这里首先让人质疑的是:既然是官商交易,有买无卖不成交。如果这是一种罪恶交易,为什么诸位先生责买不责卖、责商不责官</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">就算两边都责,但贪官是坏个案,奸商是坏身份,什么道理</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">郎先生一面告诫不要对民企存有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">幻想</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,一面宣传对官的幻想,提出所谓</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">大政府主义</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,唯恐官员权力太小。他就不怕权力越大的官员越有能力贱卖国资</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  在这点上我们发现张郎两先生倒似乎并没有什么分歧</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">张先生实际上也是觉得官员责任太大权力太小。他说:现在许多产权交易不顺,不是因为官员害怕</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国有资产流失</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,而是因为他们缺少流失这种资产的权力</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">他们</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">害怕承担国有资产流失的责任</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;!</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">按照这个意思,似乎应当免除他们的这种责任,使他们可以自由弄权而无后顾之忧了。拥有这样不受制约的权力,难道还是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">小政府</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">这不恰恰就是郎先生憧憬的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">大政府</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">而这样的政府今天固然可以</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">自由地</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">化公为私,改天它又何尝不可以</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">自由地</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">化私为公</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">这后一个可能张先生想到过吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  据说上述官商买卖属于</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">自由交易</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,谁也不能强迫谁。既然如此也就谁也不能替谁承担责任,为什么</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">都由民企承担</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">事实上,这种交易如果存在着非自愿成分,那么官迫商还是商迫官的可能性更大,也是不言而喻的。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  当然,商不大可能迫官,却很可能贿官。不过问题在于:如果这不是官商交易而是商商交易,亦即卖方出售的不是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国家的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">而是自己的财产,能设想他会接受贿赂自贬其自家财产的价格吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">当然不会。因为贿赂太少不抵其卖价之损,卖者不会有受贿动机,贿赂太多超过卖价之损,买者不会有行贿动机,如果贿赂与卖价之损恰好相当,买卖双方还要多此一举岂非大傻瓜</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  所以一般地说,商商交易是不大可能有这种猫腻的。而官商交易这种猫腻就有可能。那么官官交易呢</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">那就不用说了</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">!</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">汉语词汇中所谓</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">官官相护</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">、</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">卖官鬻爵</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">、</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">朋比为奸</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;&#8230;&#8230;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">等等形容这类行为的贬义词之丰富就足以说明问题。两个有权势者互有需求,而以公共利益做交易,这样的事儿太容易设想了。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  于是我们就看到这样一种滑稽的推论:两个有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">者之间的交易很难出现罪恶。一个有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">者与一个有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原善</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">者交易往往出现罪恶,而两个有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原善</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">者之间的交易更容易出大罪恶。呜呼,这叫什么逻辑</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">如果倒过来,设想官有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">而商有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原善</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,因此官官交易最易生罪,官商交易次之,商商交易恶最少,岂不还稍微合理一点</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  再次,这种官商交易之造成</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国有资产流失</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,据说主要就表现在成交价往往很低。那么这是谁之过呢</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">从人之常情讲,市场上的买方总是力求价格尽可能低的。要想让买方抬价,只有在《镜花缘》里的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">君子国</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">才可能。提出</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">民企原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的郎张两先生扪心自问,你们买东西时会唯恐掏钱太少</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">秦晖整天呼吁公正至上,但我坦率承认:如果我要购买一个企业,我也会尽量压价的。</span></p> <p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:10.9pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">问题是一个巴掌拍不响。任何交易的价格都不是买方单方所能决定的,通常卖方会力求提高价格,于是就有了</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">博弈</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,有了</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">价格均衡</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  而国资交易的蹊跷处就在于:卖方常常并不求高价</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">!</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">为什么</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">第一因为卖的不是他自家的东西,第二他权力不受制约,公众也过问不了价格。所有的一切</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国有资产流失</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">之所以发生,直接间接的原因都可以归到这两点。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  进一步分析你会发现,其实张郎两先生所争的两种看法,往往就是同一回事。例如,张先生埋怨官员有后顾之忧,不愿承担</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国有资产流失的责任</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。郎先生埋怨官员肆无忌惮,不负责任地贱卖公产。这两个判断乍看好像很对立,但仔细一想,这有什么可对立的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  实际情况也许是:如果官员没能从中得到好处,那么他没有什么动力去勇于负责,积极推进产权改革,于是本来并非贱卖的价格他也不接受,一些该卖的国企就没有卖掉。那么要改变这种状况就得给他好处,而且这好处必须大于他可能冒的风险。当好处大到一定阈值时,他就不怕</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">承担责任</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">了,于是多么低的价格他也干,国有资产就这样</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">流失</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">了。如今张郎两先生,把这一过程截为两段,张持前段否定后段,郎持后段否定前段,其实他们大概都是对的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">!</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  而明白了这一过程,就可以断言</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国有资产流失</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的根源主要在</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">卖</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">不在</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">买</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,在官不在商,在</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">不在</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">民</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。只要治好了</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">官</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的问题,民企再有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,也不会有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国有资产流失</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">之说</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">你想贱买,我不贱卖你能奈何</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">而如果治不好</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">官</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的问题,民企再</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原善</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">也无济于事</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">你不行贿,我卖给别人不就得了</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  事实上,今天中国的一个现实,就是民企不行贿的风险,往往要比官员不受贿的风险大得多。官不受贿,顶多发不了财,生存还是有保障的。毕竟是吃</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">官饭</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的人嘛。但是商不行贿,往往就做不成生意。而他们可没有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">官饭</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,做不成生意就无法生存。我们更不要说还有像孙大午这种情况:不行贿你居然还垮不了</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">那就干脆把你抓起来</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">!</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  可见,如果要讲</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,与其说什么</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">民企原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">不如说是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">官员原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。张先生呼吁</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">善待企业家</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,可是这种先给扣个</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">帽子再</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">赦免</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的做法恐怕谈不上真正的善待。而勇敢的郎先生好像也有点</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">恕我直言</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">欺软怕硬之嫌。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  当然公正地讲,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">官员原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">之说也并不合适。无论官商你我,非神非鬼均人也。</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">作为人性之恶人人皆有,本无分于官商乃至你我,实罪则谁犯纠谁,本无论其身份,如果要探讨导致损公肥私现象的根源</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">这恐怕是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">说在这种语境下的本意</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">那么它不是个人性问题,而是个体制问题:不受制约的权力</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">这就是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">原罪</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size:6.0pt;color:#454141">  </span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">以上这段话其实是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">10</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">年前我那篇长文中讲的,但不知为什么,发表时被编者删掉了。但我认为这些观点很重要,而且也绝没有过时,所以现在把它发表出来。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size:6.0pt;color:#454141">  </span><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 宋体, sans-serif; color: #333333;">关于</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #333333;">&#8220;</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 宋体, sans-serif; color: #333333;">次优选择</span></strong><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #333333;">&#8221;</span></strong></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  问:但是你说的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">公正分家</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">在当今的条件下能实现吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">实现不了是不是就不改革了</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">与其追求不可能的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">最优选择</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,哪怕公正性受到质疑的国企改革总比不改革好吧,有人提出</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">冰棍理论</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,说是国企改革如果拖延不决,就会像冰棍融化一样破产,资产还是没有了。现在处理就算有点</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">流失</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,总还是保留了一些价值,也是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">次优选择</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">吧。这个说法不是很有道理吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  答:平心而论,如果已经建立了约束权力的机制,对于既往的问题是可以考虑</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">次优</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的解决的。我曾经指出,像波兰在经济转轨中的一些教训,就可以用</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">冰棍理论</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">来解释。当时波兰一些大企业团结工会力量强大,一个个私有化方案都被否决,像格但斯克造船厂否决了五次,华沙乌尔苏斯工厂否决了七次,改革方案迁延十几年不决,企业也被拖垮,最后不得不作破产处理。很多波兰人也说如今回头看,如果一开始不那么斤斤计较,在企业状况尚可的时候及时转轨,预后应该会更好。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  但是,这样判断的前提是解决</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">既往问题</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">是一次性的,波兰已经建立了约束权力的体制,不可能再来一次强制性</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国有化</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">了。那么对过去的国企进行改革就确实应该两害相权取其轻,与其让</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">冰棍</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">融化,不如早点处理,即便不尽公平,也算是一次性的代价了。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  然而</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">郎顾之争</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">时的情况是这样的吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">那时的权力仍然没有约束,也从未否定过过去那种强制国有化方式并承诺不再搞。而事实上</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国进民退</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">与</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国资置换</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">也都可以任其所好反复进行。那代价还是一次性的吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">几年后就是这位先生又说</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国进民退</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">没什么大不了,将来再糟蹋一次就是了。这样反复折腾伊于胡底</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">今天他说不把冰棍便宜给我,我就让它化掉,好吧那就只好给他,但明天他又侵夺民财冻成一支更大的冰棍,然后再说必须给他,否则就再化掉,这还有完没完</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">这难道还是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">次优选择</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  所以在这种状况下,对强制性的化私为公与强制性的化公为私就是都应该反对,这不是为了什么</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">最优选择</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,而只是要避免</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">最差选择</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。什么时候约束权力的条件具备了,如何在不能尽善尽美的情况下寻求</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">次优选择</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">才是个真问题。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  事实上认为国有资产问题可以不择手段地一次性解决的想法本身是不合逻辑的。我认为杨支柱先生当时有个分析很精彩:</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">私企同样可能产生所有者和经营者分离的问题,把经营者偷偷地变成所有者就是盗贼。国有资产</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">包括赢利性资产</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">并非无主财产,产权是明晰的。但是因为监督者仍然是代理人,必然产生这样的双重困境:要么加强监督、强化程序因而降低效率,要么弱化监督便利管理</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">者监守自盗。建立国家的目的是花钱办公益,不是与民争利,国有资产应退出赢利性机构。但关于国资退出的方式和利益归宿,当然有一个程序上和实质上的公平问题</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">谁来分</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">卖</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,利益归谁。对贪污、私分国有资产的人的追究应当使用法治的手段而非运动的手段。但是一概既往不咎只能鼓励人们今后继续贪污、私分国有资产。认为把国有企业分</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">卖</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">完了就可不再有国有资产流失和贪污、私分国有资产的现象完全是胡说八道。国家不能破产,拥有数量庞大的公共财产是国家存在的必要条件。国有资产可以退出赢利性部门,但国有资产本身是永久存在的。因为私分、贪污国有资产而形成的贪欲,在赢利性国有资产被瓜分完毕后会自动转向纯粹公益性的国有资产。何况两种国有资产之间并没有不可逾越的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8216;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">楚河汉界</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8217;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,政府随时可以把财政的钱用来办企业,继续供蛀虫们私分、贪污</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。问题的实质就在这里。</span></p> <p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:10.9pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">问:中共十八届三中全会《决定》宣布实行混合所有制改革,这是国企改革的又一次重启,但很显然,十年前的那场争论,对于今天的改革仍有特殊的价值。</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">混合所有制</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的提法本身,不无回避争论的心理暗示,习近平高调提示,防止国资流失,一些国企和民企经营者则对</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">混合</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">可能出现的历史重演,对于是否会因</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">混合</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">而被又一次指为贱卖或者侵吞国资的历史罪人,多少心存疑忌。你看呢</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  答:这次国企改革到底怎么搞,我们还没有看到具体的细则。但是当年那种</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">自购自</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国企</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">MBO</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">运动</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">大概不会搞了。这可能是当年那场讨论的结果。但我并不认为这一个结果是令人遗憾的。当然,那场讨论的其他后果就不能一概而论。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  我认为在现今的条件下,国企问题归根结底还是一个政治性问题。这并不是说某种体制必须依靠大比例的国营经济才能存在</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">我以为这种说法完全是莫名其妙。秦始皇以来类似的体制存在了两千年,那是靠</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国营企业为主体</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">来维持的吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">相反我要指出一个事实:那就是当年东欧波兰等国巨变前,大型国企曾被当政者视为对体制的一大威胁,并急于消除之,恰恰是反对派阻止了他们的计划</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">!</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  这主要还不是因为国企经营不善成了财政包袱,而是因为当政者发现国企中容易出现政治性工会,当然</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">正常</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">时是官办工会,但气候一变,反对派工会也容易产生,而私企反倒不容易出现这种工会。道理很简单,工会是与雇主对着干的。国企的雇主是政府,自然就是与政府对着干了。倒是私人企业的劳资纠纷通常就是民事纠纷,不容易把政府卷进来。实际上</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">1988</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">年波兰的拉科夫斯基政府就是看到了这一点,所以曾企图以加快国企改革来瓦解团结工会。他们希望把企业变成经理自己的,赋予这些</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">干部</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">雇用和解雇工人的全权,从而把他们培养成依靠权力</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">化公为私</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">发大财的既得利益集团,调动他们对付</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">工人民主派</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的积极性。同时把工人与厂方的矛盾变成与私人老板的矛盾后,政府反倒成了调解人。团结工会抵制了这种</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">官方的私有化</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,政府才没有得逞。而剧变以后也是因为私有化,曾经呼风唤雨的团结工会很快衰落了,倒是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">前共产党</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的后继党却没几年就东山再起了</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">!</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">假如当初拉科夫斯基的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国企改革</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">得以实现,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">亏损的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">造船厂被关闭,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">看成败,人生豪迈,只不过从头再来</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的工人被抛向社会,让他们</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">不找市长找市场</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,那还会有什么团结工会</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">还会有什么圆桌会议和宪政进程</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  所以,旧政治体制并非没有大比例国营企业就不能存在,有时这因果关系甚至可能相反。但是在这种情况下为什么说国企的问题是政治性的呢</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  就是因为这种条件下的国企问题,说穿了就是不受制约的权力玩弄财产的问题。南京的刘大生先生曾经指出:在西方国有化与私有化都是纯粹的经济问题。</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">1950</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">年代英国曾经大搞国有化,但并没有导致成千上万饿殍</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">;1980</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">年代至今又大搞私有化,也没有引起大规模腐败和强力维稳。原因很简单,就是因为他们的国有化与私有化都没有滥用权力。就像上面那个网友说的:</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">私产变公有,必须要私人同意</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">公产变私有,必须要公众同意:道理就这么简单</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,所以国有还是私有,在他们那里其实就是个经济效率的择优问题。但是我们的情况则不然:</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">没收私产,例如强行拆迁,常常是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8216;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国家</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8217;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">说了算而不管房主是否同意</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">;&#8216;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">置换</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8217;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">公产,又常常是官说了算,而不管公众是否同意。</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国企改革,和更广义的经济改革乃至一般改革一样,其实就是为了解决这个问题。显然,这不是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">掌勺者私占大饭锅</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">所能解决得了的。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  那么这是不是说在</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">制约权力的改革</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">没有发生之前,国企就不能进行</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">渐进性</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的改革呢</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">当然不是。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  我们首先要明白,除了刚才所说的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">尺蠖效应</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">以外,如今国企在纯经济意义上的最大问题究竟是什么</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">很简单,并不是所有的国有企业都亏损,而是国企难免依靠权力来赚钱,即便盈利了也会妨碍公平竞争,与市场经济的方向不相容,所谓国进民退之弊,其实也就是这么回事。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  那么要解决这样的问题,逻辑上可以有两种思路:一种是把它改变成</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">一般性竞争企业</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,根本上说就是要私有化,使之在市场上与其它企业公平竞争。但是如前所述,在目前条件下产权改革的公平问题很难解决。正如你所说,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">混合所有制</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的概念模糊,似乎是为了避免争论。但其实是避免不了的:如果动用国家权力</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">动员</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">民企</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">入股</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国企,会被认为是给民企设套,让其为国企的乱局买单输血,甚至是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">变相的国有化</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。但是如果向民企</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">放权让利</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,完全靠有利可图吸引民企自愿入股,那民企必然要求控制权,实际上还是变相的私有化。而当年引起非议的那些弊病仍然会再现。所以坦率地说,尽管决策者可能是真心想在目前的制约条件下寻找可行的改革路径,但我并不看好这种思路。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  还有一种思路,就是不必把</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">变</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">私有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,但可以考虑把</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">企业</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">变成</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">事业</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,让国有机构公益化,退出竞争而成为社会福利机制的一部分,不要</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">与民争利</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,更不要</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">借公家的鸡下自己的蛋</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。而是利润全部上缴,并遏制国资内部人的特权待遇和畸高收入,使国有单位不是为企业内部人谋利,而是为全体国民谋利,类似于社保基金入市,以稳定、安全、保值而非盈利最大化为取向。同时,取消行业垄断,让民营企业平等进入各个竞争领域,取消国企特权和垄断给民企带来的不平等压力,让民营企业或更一般的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">市场属性</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">企业能够有更大的增量发展空间。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  这种思路并非现在才有,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">1990</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">年代就有人提出过把一定比例的国有资产划拨入社保基金以解决</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">历史欠账</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">问题,可惜未被采纳。但现在笔者认为这不仅仅事关</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">历史欠账</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,其实正如杨支柱所言,国家要履行公共服务职能,公益性国有资产是不能没有的,即便美国也是如此,哪怕还了</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">欠账</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,公益性国有资产或国家代管的国民资产也是需要充值的。国有资本向这个方向转型,比目前条件下只能是不明不白地</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">私有化</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">要好得多。当然,这样转型后的国有资本运营方式就必须改变。国有资本一部分转型为社保基金,社保基金如果再落实为个人账户,那实际上就是目前制度约束下唯一能有公信力的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">私有化</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">方式。如果还是现收现付的统筹制,那就是公益化运作,不能再</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">与民争利</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">、</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">公鸡私蛋</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">了。</span></p> <p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:10.9pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">除此而外,如果一部分国企还是要通过</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">产权置换</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">变身为竞争性主体,那就必须强调</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">置换</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">过程中各</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">利益有关方</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的充分谈判。我不欣赏</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">协商民主</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的说法,但充分</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">协商</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">确实可以在一定程度上弥补缺乏制度化委托</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">-</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">代理机制所造成的公信力缺陷。国有资产不是经理的,不是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">管理层</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的,甚至也不是包括雇员在内的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">内部人</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的,尤其在上一轮国企改革</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">抓大放小甩包袱</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">之后,今天的国企很多都是具有资源性、垄断性、特惠性的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">肥肉</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,即便没有一分钱</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">财政投入</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">也不影响其</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">公共财</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">性质,处置这样的资产,不仅</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">主管部门</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">、经理、管理层乃至员工要参与协商,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">外部</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的公众也有权过问。当然,协商的权重应有区别,一般外部人、对企业发展确有特殊贡献的内部人、部分股份化国企的实际投资者应该有不同的讨价还价权重,对不同权重的制度化安排或许正是推进民主制度的一条经济路径。但不管怎样,我们必须反对依靠过去体制的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">优越性</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">来搞国企改革、</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">我想给谁就给谁</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">激进</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">想法。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  这种思路当然也不是完美无缺,但是我认为,在当前的条件制约下,这应该比一会儿</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国进民退</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">一会儿</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国资置换</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">那样的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">尺蠖式改革</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">弊病要小,要说</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">次优选择</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,这一思路庶几近之。等到其他领域的改革进展允许时,再来考虑国有资本的最终定位。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size:6.0pt;color:#454141"> </span><strong><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 宋体, sans-serif; color: #333333;"> 正确总结历史经验,平心看待他山之石</span></strong></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  问:你对东欧的私有化发表过很多见解,总的来讲似乎是很赞成当时他们那种激进的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">休克疗法</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的。但对中国的国企改革你却似乎极其</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">保守</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,甚至不但反对</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">化公为私</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,还反对国企参与市场竞争,你说的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">不必把</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8216;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8217;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">变</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8216;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">私有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8217;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,但可以考虑把</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8216;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">企业</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8217;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">变成</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8216;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">事业</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8217;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,让国有机构公益化</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">不就是这样吗</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">你怎么解释这种矛盾态度</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  答:首先要指出,我是澄清过国内对东欧当年私有化的许多误解,所谓</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">东欧错在激进,中国对在渐进</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">就是典型的误解之一。实际上东欧当时只是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">剧变</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">后摆脱了意识形态,于是放言私有化,立法也很顺利,但具体操作起来,则是</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">民主分家麻烦大,福利国家包袱多</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,除了东德有财大气粗的西德大包大揽不计代价地接盘</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">托管</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">外,多数国家的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">激进私有化</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">通常只是说说而已,真正做的往往是瞻前顾后,拖泥带水,一个企业谈上十几年并不罕见。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  但是,他们本来想搞得很激进倒是确实的。之所以如此,主要原因并不是如有些人说的什么新自由主义经济学家或</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">西方顾问</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">给他们出了主意。民主国家即便总统总理也不能为所欲为,何况无权无势的学者</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">真正导致这些国家当时无论当选的是右派还是左派都希望经济改革能够一步到位的原因,主要盖有三焉:一是民主制达成了委托</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">-</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">代理关系,民选政府根据民主立法处理国民公产,私有化名正言顺。二是正因为他们是先民主化,后私有化,民主化时那里的经济仍是国营企业一统天下,民营经济刚起步。在这种情况下搞市场经济,不把相当比例的国有资产转为民有,市场主体就没法形成。而第三点是过去人们很少谈到,但我认为很重要的:就是民主化往往加剧了国企的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">预算软约束</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,导致政府不能不想尽快处置。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  事实上,在其他条件相当的情况下,民主国家的国营企业往往比私营企业、乃至专制国家的国营企业更难经营。私有企业有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">资本积累激励</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,自己的厂子总是要用心打理,自己不会打理也要尽可能请高手经理,这无需多说。而专制下的的国营企业也有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">升迁激励</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,厂长被上面认为干得好就可能升官,下面觉得你好不好并不重要。所以可以要下面</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">先生产、后生活</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">、</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">小车不倒只管推</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,搞</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">红色血汗工厂</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">列宁就曾声称专政下的国有经济最适合推广泰勒制,布哈林更曾宣传苏维埃经济的优势是可以对工人实行</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">超经济强制</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。但是民主国家就不同,那里政务官靠选举,事务官靠专业考核,很少有</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">厂长受赏识就可以升部长</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">的事,干部也不能只讨好上级,加之民主国家往往工会发达,厂长既不能升官,工厂又不是自己的,犯不着惹工会。于是当年东欧国家民主化时,且不说经互会市场消失对他们国企的打击,就是没有这一打击</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">如并非经互会成员的南斯拉夫和阿尔巴尼亚</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,民主化后国企</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">预算软约束</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">也往往恶化,不尽快脱手,国家财政就可能吃不消。其实,当年瑞典等国的社会主义政党靠民主选举掌权后本来也以国有经济为理想,后来都浅尝辄止,转向了私有经济加福利国家的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">分配社会主义</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,这也不是因为那些左派受</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">资本家的腐蚀</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">而变了质,真正的原因就是民主制下的国企太难搞。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  而我们国家这三点都恰恰与他们相反。第一,在我国如今的意识形态下私有化既非名正言顺,没有委托</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">-</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">代理关系的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">掌勺者私占大饭锅</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国民也确实很难接受。第二,我国今天向市场经济转轨已经转了三十年,民营经济存量已经很大,不像东欧当年民营经济几乎是从无到有,不搞国企私有化就没有市场主体。第三,我国的政治条件使国企的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">预算软约束</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">不是致命问题,过去民营经济没起来时仍然可以搞</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">红色血汗工厂</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">,民企起来后也可以</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">与民争利</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。加上已经搞过甩包袱的改革,目前国企主要问题并非亏损太大威胁财政,而是靠权力和垄断与民争利,甚至由于这种争利能力太强,一些垄断性国企已经从</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">红色血汗工厂</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">变成了内部人福利畸高的特权部门。因此我们如今不存在国有资本急于脱手的问题,但的确要防止垄断和不公平竞争对民营经济的抑制。在这种情况下,与其靠本身就很难公平的</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">掌勺者私占大饭锅</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">使国企变成私企来参与公平竞争,不如使其公益化而退出竞争,至少我们不能只把宝押在前一思路上,而应该更多考虑后一思路。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  总之,如果说我国</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">30</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">年前</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">与东欧转轨之初类似</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国企的问题在于没有竞争,那么现在</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">(</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">与东欧那时不同</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">)</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">国企的问题则主要在于它的不公平竞争。如果很难使其公平竞争,那就应该争取其退出竞争。至少应该两种努力都进行。所以对于当年东欧所做的事,我的主张是反对两种观点:一种是从意识形态出发指责他们做错了,另一种是既然他们没做错,那我们也要这么做</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8212;&#8212;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">尽管是在不同的政治条件下。换言之,要么骂他们的民主私有化,要么如果无需骂,那我们也来个权贵私有化。我以为这两者都是错误的。</span></p> <p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:10.9pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">最后我同意一位朋友的意见:</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size:6.0pt;color:#454141">  </span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8220;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">是时候重新审视十年前的那一场争论了。我们希望中国经济走过的这十年,历史历经十年的沉淀,能够帮助我们更为清晰地看清楚这场影响至深的争论,我们希望能够在新的历史转折点来临的时候,让历史告诉现在,告诉未来,我们曾经走过一段怎样的路,我们今后应该选择怎样的路。我们从那场争论中,究竟可以总结出哪些对今天有启发有借鉴价值的东西</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">?</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">如果说,我们曾经错过,那么我们错在哪里,又该如何厘清历史的脉络,让这场争论在正确的轨道上,逐渐靠近真相和事实,让改革在正确的轨道上,一步步走向其应许之地</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #454141;">&#8221;</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">。</span></p> <p style=" line-height: 10.9pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: #454141;">  这是我们能为历史所尽的绵薄之力。</span></p> <p>&nbsp;</p>